Future Skills, Faith and Finding Your Place

Gavin O’Meara, Steve Pailthorpe, Andrew De Groot, Gordon Hickson and Rev. Mike De Vetter on business, calling and the future of work

What if preparing for the future of work is about more than simply learning the latest technology?

That question sat behind a wide-ranging conversation at the Kingdom Biz Conference 2025 at Rediscover Church, where Gavin O’Meara of FE News was joined by Steve Pailthorpe of Iconic Digital, Andrew De Groot of ActionCOACH, Gordon Hickson of Heartcry for Change and Rediscover Church Associate Pastor Rev. Mike De Vetter. Gavin spends much of his working life thinking about skills, education and employability, but this was a rather different room from the policy and education audiences he would usually speak to. Here were Christians trying to work out what faithfulness looks like in business, whether they were already leading something established or simply wondering what God might be asking them to do next.

That changed the direction of the conversation. Future skills quickly became a discussion about calling, character and the people we allow to shape us. Mike spoke about discovering that part of his own calling was not to seek the spotlight but to help awaken dreams in other people. Gordon reflected on the way gifts can emerge through loyalty and relationship, while Steve challenged anyone unsure of where they fit to stop waiting for perfect clarity and start by serving someone else.

The practical side of business was never far away either. Andrew talked about habits and accountability, while Steve unpacked what he looks for before deciding whether a side hustle could become a viable company. Underneath both was a simple challenge: being busy is not the same as building. If every hour disappears into doing the work, there is very little space left to think about where the business is actually going.

Later, the discussion widened again. Gavin brought the focus onto young people who are currently outside education and employment, asking what business owners and the church might be able to do. The answers were less about programmes and more about people: give someone a chance, introduce them to a different environment and walk alongside them long enough for their expectations of what is possible to change.

What if your work is part of the mission?

One of the more interesting ideas running through the panel was that mission does not necessarily require leaving ordinary working life behind. Gavin spoke about growing up around unemployment and deprivation before finding himself advising government on skills and employability. He did not present that journey as something carefully engineered from the beginning. Looking back, he could see how the experiences and opportunities along the way had placed him somewhere he had never expected to be.

Mike De Vetter came at the same question from a very different starting point. As a young youth leader, he remembered wanting a prophetic word for himself, only to find that the moment became about the young people he was leading instead. What initially felt like being overlooked helped clarify something much deeper: part of his calling was to help other people recognise what God had placed in them.

That did not mean every idea worked first time. Mike spoke candidly about investing heavily in a children’s book that barely sold, then returning to the dream later with more courage and a willingness to count the cost properly. His family downsized their home, he relaunched the project and the next attempt began to gain traction. The story gave the conversation a useful honesty. Faith does not remove risk or guarantee that every first attempt will succeed.

Instead, the panel kept circling back to a steadier picture of faithfulness. Listen to God, keep learning, build habits that support the work and stay close to people who can challenge you. That combination may not sound dramatic, but it is often where clarity starts to form.

The people around you matter

For Gordon Hickson, connection is far more than useful networking. He spoke about gifts being drawn out through loyalty, relationship and the willingness to serve alongside other people. Sometimes we do not yet recognise what is in us, and Gordon described those gifts almost like seeds that begin to germinate when we are in the right environment.

His own experience of being placed into pastoral responsibility, despite not seeing himself as a pastor, became an example of that. The role drew out something he did not know was there. For him, that was a reminder that we often discover parts of our calling through the people we are committed to and the responsibilities we choose to carry.

Steve Pailthorpe echoed that from his own story. When somebody does not know exactly where they fit, his advice was not to sit still waiting for perfect clarity. Find somebody else and serve. He described a season when the platform he had known disappeared and God used the ordinary work of church life to deal with ambition and pride. Cleaning toilets, putting out chairs and helping behind the scenes did not look like the future he had imagined, but he believes that season became part of forming the person he needed to become.

Business needs structure as well as vision

The panel did not stay at the level of calling. When Gavin asked how a side hustle could become a sustainable business, Steve immediately moved into numbers. Is there a viable market? Can the idea make a profit? Where are the gaps in your own skill set, and who might be better placed to handle those areas?

Andrew added the importance of accountability. Business owners can end up wearing so many hats that they become both the person doing the work and the person deciding whether the work was good enough. Without somebody outside that echo chamber, it becomes surprisingly easy to tell yourself you are making progress simply because you have been busy.

Their shared challenge was to become more deliberate. Decide what matters in the next 90 days, protect time for the work that will genuinely move the business forward and stop treating every task as though it carries the same weight. Just as importantly, find people who can ask difficult questions and tell you when you are drifting.

Perhaps the strongest thread of the whole session was also the simplest: do not try to carry it all alone.

Watch the Future Skills and Kingdom Business panel from Kingdom Biz Conference 2025

Future Skills and Kingdom Business: full panel transcript

The transcript below retains the original spoken wording of the panel. Editing has been limited to punctuation, speaker identification and obvious transcription errors or commonly misheard words where the intended wording is clear from context.

Future skills for people who love the Lord

Gavin O’Meara: So thanks, everyone. I’ve had a really good day today. I was a bit unsure how it was going to be. This isn’t my normal sort of gig that I do for events. I was asked to look at something on future skills. And normally I’ve got an audience because I run FE News and Careers, where I’ve got a thought leadership platform about the future of work, future skills for college leaders, for training providers, awarding organisations and stuff like that.

So I’m looking at the audience, and I just see a bunch of people who love the Lord, also want to understand where they’re going in their existing businesses or new businesses. So I thought I’d look at future skills for everyone in the room and what we can learn. We’ve got a really cool panel. But with skills we often look at knowledge, skills and behaviours.

So I wanted, if I could, bring my panel up. So Steve, if you could come up. Yeah. Come up. Mike. Andrew, can you come back up again? That’s right. So we’re going to bring you back up. And Gordon as well. We’re going to have a squeeze on the sofas on the right, guys. So I want to, first of all, if everyone could introduce themselves really briefly and then we could kick off a couple of questions. Mike?

Introducing Rev. Mike De Vetter

Rev. Mike De Vetter: My name is Mike De Vetter. I am married with my wife, Amy. Got three children, moved 12 months ago from New Zealand. I’ve been in full time church ministry, employed by the church for the last 25 years. But there’s the creator, the entrepreneur, that has not learned yet the business side of being a creator.

So I feel a little bit like an imposter sitting up here, but I love to see the release of the dreams in people’s hearts. And the verse, Psalm 37:4, is what I had written down, that God puts the desire in our hearts. So the desire of our hearts is actually what He’s placed within us. So unpacking that, awakening that in our lives, I think that’s my heart, to see that in people’s lives.

So, real privilege to be here. I’m the associate pastor here, sitting in a second chair role with Mark as he leads the movement and leads the church here. And the last probably ten years of my life, I’ve been learning how to be a cheerleader. And I feel like that’s my spot and where I’m called to be right now.

Introducing Gordon Hickson

Gavin O’Meara: Gordon?

Gordon Hickson: You’ve heard my story. But I think I’m very similar to Mike, and I’m best at number two. I am really a facilitator, and I look for people with the biggest vision possible. So I love to come alongside people with impossible dreams and then make it happen. Facilitate it.

Introducing Andrew De Groot

Andrew De Groot: And of course, obviously, you’ve just heard about my story. So, yeah, full time business coach and mentor.

Introducing Steve Pailthorpe

Steve Pailthorpe: Awesome. You’ve heard about me already. So CEO of an agency called Iconic Digital in London, global agency spanning across three offices with an office in Kenya. Strategic government advisor to the government of Kenya, His Excellency the President of Kenya. I’ve been friends with him for the last eight years. And also to the UK government on national infrastructure.

I’m also President of Crown Global, which is a prophetic Christian ministry. Spent seven years as senior pastor of Crown Family Church, which I have just moved into the Elim Church in Wimbledon in the last six months. So delighted to be part of Elim. Other than that, get involved in lots of other businesses that you’ve heard a bit about, with the wedding car company and events company and property portfolio across Ohio, over in the States and in the UK.

How do we step into our mission?

Gavin O’Meara: Thank you. So I think some of you both are saying actually around a little bit of either number two or imposter. The job I do, I found everything through school. I grew up in an area of quite high unemployment and deprivation. There was a bit of a postcode sort of thing where I grew up. And now I go into government and I advise on skills or advise on education and employability. And I can’t do that on my own.

That’s been somehow or another given to me by my life experience. So I went through that, the Lord put me in different positions, and it’s nothing to do with my ability. It was just given as a mission to me. And I hold it lightly, you know, of what I can do. I’m off to Qatar soon. I go to Singapore to advise on all sorts of stuff. I’m like, that’s been given by the Lord.

So what I wanted to discuss is sort of what I feel has been missing today is how do we step into our mission? Because Mark said it to begin with around vocational appointment, vocational work based learning. That’s my game. So how do we step from being mission to missionaries in our chosen profession? How do we know what that is? How do we sort of step in that, have those knowledge, skills and behaviours? Mike?

The dreams God has placed in you

Rev. Mike De Vetter: Fantastic. I was standing in a conference as a youth leader, probably the age of 22, and everyone was, they were prophesying over all of the youth leaders. And in my heart, I was just kind of sitting in the middle of a thousand other people, and no one really knew who I was. I had, I think, 11 or 12 teenagers with me, and there were groups of hundreds.

And I remember selfishly thinking, “Pick me. I want that prophetic word. I want that word for me.” And in that moment, I just felt that gentle rebuke from God and was like, okay. And so I changed my mindset. And in that moment, they changed from prophesying over all of the leaders of the youth ministries to some of the young people.

And they came and they just picked some children out of the crowd, these young people out of the crowd, and out of the crowd of a thousand, I had 11 or 12 people. Three of the four that stood on stage were from our youth, our tiny little youth ministry, and they began to just prophesy over those young people. And I remember just weeping in that moment as God gave me my calling, which was to get on my shoulders, that I would live my life to awaken the dreams and ideas and to support the dreams in others.

And so as I look and I listen here today, the potential that we all carry within us, but I think we’re afraid to step into it. And I think God challenged me on that probably about seven or eight years ago when I had these dreams, these books that I had in my heart. And I thought about it every day, that I would write a book.

And I wrote my first children’s book, and it was a fail. It was horrific. I invested, I think, ten or fifteen thousand dollars into this book, and I was promised the world through a vanity publisher, and I think we made about eight dollars of sales. And so I bought all of the copies and I said, “I will…” I vowed I would never do that again until I sat in a conference.

And again, God reminded me of the dream that was in my own heart. And it was such a powerful moment. We actually, Amy and I, we said, “Right, we’re going to sell our house. We’re going to downsize our own house to afford a mortgage, to take out on what we could afford to lose.”

And this book series, it was all about identity and purpose, and it was something that I’d carried in my heart for years and years, but I was terrified to do because of the cost. And so we counted the cost. I think we took out a mortgage for 35,000. We got a different home, a smaller home, so that we could afford to do that, and we went about it.

And that was five years ago. We launched it. We picked up the books, a pallet load of a thousand books, on the day that Covid shut down New Zealand. So I was the last car on the road coming out of Auckland to the Far North, and there were no other cars on the road. And I had a thousand books on the back of my car.

And I launched an online book business. And because people were at home, we sold about five or six hundred copies of this book in the space of about five or six months. And it began the journey. And, you know, we’ve recovered the cost of that.

But now I’m at that stage, where to from here? And that’s a part of the challenge, I suppose, I have and I sense is even in this space. Are we stuck at that point of our potential? We’re only at that point, but God wants to take us into the next.

And that’s where the partnership, the relationship, it’s the people that I’m going to try to connect with and say, “You carry something. I have no idea. I do not understand, but you carry it.” And so that walking alongside in the partnership.

Sitting in that number two role alongside Mark, he is that apostolic leader that sees beyond what I can see. But to be able to stand alongside and say, “Actually, I’ve got gifts and skills and a grace on my life that complements what he carries as well.”

And so my big thing is, who are we connected with? The networking? Who are the people that we are walking the journey with, heading towards the same vision, but we each have a different part to play within seeing that vision? And if it’s not about me, but about those I lead and I want to raise up and empower, and if I don’t have to get the credit for it, but God gets the glory, then there’s no limit to what we can achieve in the together.

Why the right connections matter

Gavin O’Meara: So, Gordon, I was really inspired by what you said around the struggles that you went through and how you overcame all those barriers and stuff like that by working in step with the Lord. Anything that you would want to share here? How you are in touch, like you are talking to the Lord, “What is my mission for this business?” How are those sort of knowledge, skills and behaviours? How would you advise everyone in the room to make sure they are mission led with their business?

Gordon Hickson: Yeah. I think often we have no clue who we are or what we are. And I think it’s at times like that, there needs to be an ability in your heart to be loyal to somebody else. And it’s that thing of connection. I always find when I’m looking for a leadership team, I didn’t look for the bright sparks who’ve got incredible gifting. I look for somebody who’s loyal.

Because when there’s a bond, there’s a transfer. And I find that often giftings and things are drawn out of people when there’s a bond with somebody. Suddenly all of those giftings begin to start coming out.

And I feel it comes with this connection. You begin to see yourself through other people’s eyes because, as I said, we often don’t know what’s inside. And suddenly you begin to see yourself operating in different ways as you bond with a team or with one particular person. And there’s a real transfer of life, transfer of values, even skills. And that gifting begins to get germinated.

I remember for many years, I mean, I’ve been given the title pastor, but I was not pastor. And I actually was put into position as being the parish vicar or pastor of St Aldates. And the bishop, who again gave me the review, saying, “This man is definitely not a pastor. He is a global missions director.”

But the thing is, when I committed myself to it and I bonded into that job, literally God drew out of the spirit realm the most incredible pastoral gift that I didn’t know was there. And it just was drawn up because I was bonded in. I was loyal, and the Holy Spirit just released that other gifting.

So I think we often think that the gifts are already there. I think there are little seeds within every one of us. They get germinated at different times and suddenly think, “Whew, where did that come from?” And it’s often the connections that you make that begin to germinate those different seeds. And so that is why it’s vital to be in connection with the right people.

Making God your CEO

Gavin O’Meara: And I call Andrew. It wouldn’t be Kingdom business without this idea of having God as your CEO. So what knowledge, skills, behaviours would you say you would need to be in place?

And also, to say about Andrew, if we get someone to talk about brand and legacy, when I started up FE News 22 years ago this week, it actually started out of being dissatisfied. Canary Wharf, and I used to sit at the bottom of the tower in my Hawaiian shirt, just about to jump on the startup dot com where Kelly used to work. And I heard of this amazing guy working in HSBC doing really great things for the Lord in HSBC. This is this guy. And that’s 22 years later of that legacy coming over from that.

But Andrew, knowledge, skills for having the Lord as your CEO, how would you explain it for everyone in the room?

Andrew De Groot: Wow, what a big question. I feel like to make God your CEO obviously relies on basically great habits and disciplines. I would love to say it was anything more difficult than that, but actually getting great in those skills and habits, that is actually quite a difficult thing to do.

It was a great moment where Rachel earlier, maybe she was like brushing your teeth and lifting a leg and doing other stretches at the same time. She was doing that, what we call habit stacking. So I habit stack. If anyone does this thing, when I brush my teeth, it’s got a 30 second buzzer and I stretch between these 30s. That’s habit stacking, right? And you can continue, when you do something well, to stack a habit on it.

So I’ve got a great habit of reading the Bible in the morning, and I stack habits on that. And I feel like it really starts by understanding what are the disciplines you need for the next 90 days of your plan? What are those disciplines? Think what those disciplines are, and then work out how you’re going to make them your habits and stack them.

Now people have different levels of energy throughout the day. That’s another point worth throwing. Some people are morning people. Some people, well, I don’t know many afternoon people, but they exist. And some people are evening people. I’m much more of a night owl. My morning, and then I’m not really much of a middle. I don’t know why. So I can get lots of energy then. So I know when’s best to adopt those habits that are important to me, that, again, make that business work at the time I’m in it for the health of it.

When you do not know where you fit, serve

Gavin O’Meara: Steve?

Steve Pailthorpe: Wow. Same question. And look, I go back to the very start when I was young, and still am young, but when I was an 11 year old boy, I used to have, unlike my peers who would have pictures of whatever girls on their wall, I had pictures of Reinhard Bonnke’s crusades in Nigeria on the walls. And I wanted to be in ministry, and I wanted to see miracles and signs and wonders taking place. And the crusades in Lagos, Nigeria, they were all over my bedroom wall.

And I remember as a young boy having a dream saying, “Lord, if You would use me somehow like that, that would be pretty cool.” And at the age of 12, getting on fire for God. And then this British evangelist, Jonathan Conrathe, who some of you might know, turned round to me and said, “Hey Steve, would you like to come travelling with me?” And I dropped everything and said, “Absolutely.”

And, you know, fast track on, it’s amazing how God joins the pieces of the puzzle. Because I ended up having a spiritual mum who was called Teresa Wairimu, who is one of the spiritual daughters of Reinhard Bonnke, who is one of Kenya’s foremost spiritual leaders. And I’ve been working with her now since 2018.

And during the latter years of Pastor Bonnke, I had the great privilege of going to some of his meetings and supporting him in Germany and then in the UK and also in Kenya as well when he was there. And I think somehow God interconnects all of the passions that you have, but also He gives you the ability to forward think in terms of what He really wants you to do.

Now, am I called to be a crusade evangelist? No. Am I called to be a communicator? Absolutely. And so God has done an amazing thing, as I’ve placed my trust into Him, to weave all of those components together.

I will just come back to something that Gordon said because I think this is absolutely key and important. When you don’t know where you fit and when you don’t have the exact idea of where you’re meant to be operating, whether that’s in business or ministry, go find someone else and serve another. Because when you are plugged into service, then you will find your place.

And I remember as a 23 year old man, I had been travelling in ministry with Jonathan for several years, had done all of these different things, preached to 80,000 people and had a great experience of seeing God doing amazing things, but landed myself in the local church not really with any platform whatsoever.

And the Lord really dealt with me about my own ego and my pride during those times, of having to actually deal with selfish ambition and all those things. And the way He did that was to get me plugged into service, cleaning the toilets and putting the chairs out, doing the sound equipment, doing all of those things.

But through service, I ended up being restored into the fullness of who He wanted me to become. So developing those skills, developing those habits and behaviours, when you’re plugged into service, God will give you the desires of your heart, but He’ll enable you to come into alignment.

And it actually isn’t until you die to self and you realise that actually, in the greater, bigger picture of what God wants to do in your life as a business owner, that you need to mature and to learn that maturity that only comes when you serve another.

So mentorship, coaching, all of the things Andrew has been talking about, absolutely spot on. And the only way that you’re going to grow to the next level is through getting that learning and education.

Remember that formula. It’s not my formula. It’s Brad Sugars’ formula: Be times Do equals Have. The Be, who you are, enables you to then do the things that you want to do, which will enable you to be who God wants you to be and have what He wants you to have.

Turning a side hustle into a business

Gavin O’Meara: Yeah. Cool. I want to try to speak to some of those, which are really cool. You did the stacks of them. Do a bit of a show of hands for those that are moving from side hustle or trying to scale that from brand. They have no team. They have no money.

Steve, we’re going to bounce it back to you, though, if we could be quick. So how does someone get a side hustle, if it’s of the Lord, how do they get it to be their full time business like you?

Steve Pailthorpe: Okay, great. Great question. Say side hustle, something that I can see an opportunity in. The first thing I do is I run it through the ActionCOACH Five Ways model. The number of leads times the transactions equals the number of business. Then from there I look at margin and transactions, and then I do the calculations to work out, is it a plausible business venture?

Okay. That means, is it going to generate a net profit having me done all of the activity? Because if it doesn’t, then there’s no point investing time, energy into something. So if I do a back of an envelope quick analysis to determine, is the business going to be profitable? And if I can see it is based on the cost of goods, the marketing investment that I need to put in, then I know it’s a goer.

Okay. And then it’s a case of, how do I quickly realise what my core competencies are as a business owner, and what are the areas of lack or the areas of skill that I don’t currently have in my team? And the first thing I would advise you is to utilise high quality virtual assistants from a young point to get the job done.

I’ve had a PA for the last 12 years. It was the best thing I ever did. I now have a team of 12 virtual assistants. Okay, that’s not including the 33 staff that we have in our business. Twelve individual operators who specialise in different areas, and they all know what they have to do, and they’re incredibly cost effective.

So you can very, very quickly get scale without having to go down the route of employment by giving simple tasks that are not within your core skill to people who are way better. Utilise some of those networks, get yourself out there and get yourself into a coaching relationship with someone who can be your critical advisor and who can also ask you the hard questions.

Most business leaders fail because they’re not accountable. Be accountable to your plan. Stay accountable to your actions and keep a daily log of all the actions that you’re doing. Focus that in on your 90 day plan, and that’s where you start to get the results coming through.

Why accountability matters

Andrew De Groot: And that accountability is so important. Because, you know, you are playing so many hats. We showed that role earlier. Head of finance, head of marketing, head of IT, head of HR, head of operations. But also you’re both the chairman and you’re the head of the business.

So did you have a good day or a great day? Have you done a good job? “Well, I think I’ve done a great job.” You know, you’re just asking yourself. You’re in your own echo chamber. You haven’t got a force of accountability.

Lots of people get, “Well, you do. Have I done a great job today?” “Well, you can have a day off.” “No, you can’t.” So this is chatter going on in your own head. And you need to be able to share that with someone.

And business is lonely. You need to be able to find the right person, or people around you, to walk that journey with you.

Working on the business rather than in it

Gavin O’Meara: Next question. That could be Andrew. The next biggest section of people in the room are those that are probably working in their business, not on it. They’re probably working really, really hard on that.

Andrew De Groot: They’re sweating.

Gavin O’Meara: You know, things are tough. They’ve got other commitments. How do you really succinctly say, “Look, this is how you get time to better work on your business?” And is that, you know, marketing? Is that looking at your phone?

Andrew De Groot: It’s actually remarkably simple. It’s actually spend some time not working in the business. How do you do that? The first thing I’d say is create a 90 day plan, right? What can you do in the next three months? It can’t be everything.

The reason why you’re working 180 hours a week, not some news, is you’re doing every single job and you think every job is important. They’re not all as important as each other. So what are the critical things you need to achieve just in the next 90 days?

Why do we say 90 days? Because it’s just stretching enough that it pushes you to think in the distance, but it’s not too far away that you lose hope along the journey. It’s a really important thing to do. It’s 13 weeks.

What are the three most important things? Never more than three, right? Because as soon as you make it more than three, even one would be a good start. Because what’s better, ten things not finished or one thing finished? One thing finished. It’s much better.

I always use the example of steam, right? What temperature do you get steam? 100 degrees, right? You can work and get real hot sweats on at 95, 99, but you’re still at, the engine’s not turning until you get to 100 degrees. So better off to finish things and make them work. And that’s what business owners don’t do. They try and juggle all the plates and never complete anything.

Gavin O’Meara: Your eyes are sparkling, Steve.

Steve Pailthorpe: Yeah, just wanted to add one more thing on that. If you remember that 80/20 principle, which can be applied to almost everything, what that means is that 80% of your time only produces 20% of your results. Flip it the other way. You’ve got some high performance activity time, which is 20% of that time, producing 80% of the results.

So if you come to me as a business owner and you said to me, “Steve, I’m so busy within the business doing all of these things,” just analyse your time for a week and go, “What are the time elements and constraints actually I could cut out of my schedule that are not achieving output?”

Very, very quickly you’ll be able to discover three, maybe five hours of time that actually you can then start intentionally blocking out and investing on the business. I do it in two ways. The first time I moved from being an employed person in the business to actually working on it, I started block booking time in the diary and shut the door.

I turned off the phones and I intentionally worked on the business. And then as you start to do that more and more, it becomes more and more rewarding because you’re getting output activity from the time that you’re investing into. 80/20 high performance activity time is something that will really give you a catalyst to claim your time back.

Andrew De Groot: And I think it’s worth probably, for some people, describing what on the business time is. On and in sounds easy. “I’m just doing everything.” On may be more difficult.

Two things, really. First thing is the time to some reflection. From reflection, a new perspective, new performance. But also it’s projects. So what isn’t in the business today that needs to be in the business today?

We don’t do sales, marketing well. Let’s build sales and marketing. Let’s build sales first and then market, either way round. But the point is, it’s the intentionality of that that is working on the business. It’s something that’s not part of the regular business today.

Once you finish the project, by the way, it then goes into the business, and that just becomes in the business time. But someone else is doing it and it’s not you. So you’re constantly going through the business in that fashion.

Giving God your time

Gavin O’Meara: And that’s great. And it reminds me of something which I forgot about, so hopefully it’s from the Lord. When I was in startup, it was six months before we earned any money, and it was like, “No, I’ve got six months.” And it was like to the day after, actually, it pushed me a bit further. Like, “Gavin, I’m going to knock you on a bit more.”

But I tithed. I couldn’t afford money, which we did do anyway. I tithed time to the Lord. So we’ve all got something to give to the Lord, you know.

So I think this is all around not just business skills, but like getting the Lord in as our CEO. And I think we can only do that with two ears. We’re designed with two ears, one mouth. So how can we listen to the Lord in this?

You cannot go through struggle alone

Gavin O’Meara: Gordon, I want to ask you something around, there’s people in the room that, yeah, we saw on the stat again, that there’s more chance of business failure than sort of success in certain periods. And there’s people that have gone through real struggles.

You’re a High Court… we’ve, you know, out of the country, you know, you had all these sort of struggles going on. For someone that has gone through something kind of major, how can they trust in the Lord with integrity and have real faith in that real, real struggle time?

What would you sort of recommend to those that are actually really, really going through it, but maybe don’t want to speak to anyone about it because they’re embarrassed or something?

Gordon Hickson: The trouble is you can’t do it by yourself. Seriously, can’t. You have got to do this with somebody else. I think if you lock up and you’re by yourself, you’ll crash. I mean, I’ve got a wife. That does help. But also, you need other people.

Through my life, in different struggles, being able to get together with others. And then you can go through those times together with a group of people. I think life works with community. It works from community. It’s created for community.

And if we try and push through with little me trying to make it happen, I think it’s a waste of time. I think we’ve got to understand that we’re designed to be people that work together as a group, in community, because we each do each other things.

When I was in Oxford, I was part of a men’s group. We used to meet every week. We were actually all from different churches, but we really helped each other because we shared the good, the bad, the ugly. And we were able to help each other through a lot of different things.

Every single one became a significant ministry leader in the nation because they had a group of people who knew everything, the good, the bad, the ugly about them. It’s vital. And in business, it’s vital too. You’ve got to have that group with you.

From independence to interdependence

Gavin O’Meara: It’s living authentically, isn’t it? Like Andrew’s mentioned, running the business can sometimes be lonely. You know, it can be lonely at the top or lonely when you’re going through that treacle moment of when you’re trying to make the magic happen.

Coming at it from a pastoral perspective, what do you think the church, not saying just Rediscover, but the church in general, how could the church step in more to support business owners, to be able to make sure their mission, that they’ve got that support of the church?

The other day we had a really cool missionary on the stage. Everyone was, you know, it was his mission to hack through Africa with a cool truck. You know, to do a really cool thing. But how about that person that’s got to switch on the computer when they really don’t want to, and they’ve got to do that email, or make someone redundant, or do whatever they really don’t want to do? So how can we support that missionary in an office?

Rev. Mike De Vetter: Yeah. I think the journey we’re on, even within our own church at the moment, is that journey from dependence to independence to interdependence. And I think so often, I think as a young boy, my goal was to become independent, meaning I didn’t need anyone else.

And I think the language that we’re hearing here is that actually we need one another and we’re stronger when there is an interdependence. When the sum of who I am is not enough, but when I am connected to other people as well, then that growth happens exponentially.

What I’ve noticed, even coming from another culture into a British culture, is that there is a real silo mentality in the ages, but then I think probably even in the class system and the types of people that you would find in church. We become very comfortable with those who are like us.

But actually it’s the people that are not like us that often will bring the colour and the flavour and the spice that we need, or that shift in that change. We’ve obviously been exploring as a church and across the movement the whole area of the APEST and the five different functions that really make up the heart of the church.

And when I think of the silos, I’ve seen children and youth and young adults and adults. But I think even in the APEST there have been the silos of the, “Well, I just don’t get that prophet,” or, “I just don’t understand that apostle and I don’t understand the teacher.”

And so someone we don’t understand, I think we kind of pull away from them and we say, “Well, I’ll huddle with the people that I love, with my crew. I’ll hang out with my people.”

But actually the fullness of the body of Christ is finding somebody who challenges you and even threatens you a little bit in the way you think. And I love that Mark is apostolic in nature, but probably one of the graces of my life is teacher.

And so, not surprisingly, we clash, but not clash in a bad way. We clash into each other to see. I have to see what he sees and he sees what I see. And hopefully together, balanced with everything else, we grow together.

I’ve become bigger in my outward thinking by being around Mark. So I’m always looking into, am I hearing enough prophetic in my life? Well, I need to go and have a conversation with that person.

You know, is my hunger to reach people with the Gospel, is that there? Well, I need to go and have another conversation with that person who carries an evangelistic gift. So bring that into the marketplace.

I think in our conversations, we need to rub shoulders with people who don’t think like us. And so as a church, the worst thing we can do is say, “Right, business people over there and students over there and young people…” We need to encourage bold conversations.

Walk across the room and talk to somebody different to you, somebody who you never thought you would be in relationship with. But go in not to change them, but ask really intelligent questions.

So invite the wisdom that they carry into your life rather than going over, “Hey, let me prove to you why you need to listen to me.” But we approach it so humbly. “I want to learn. I want to listen. I want to grow.”

I think one of the big things that’s come out is we’ve got to be learning every day. Just keep learning. Keep putting time in our day to learn and grow.

I’m trying to build businesses for the first time in my life and really thinking, actually, there’s a business element to what I carry. And so I’m just trying to lean into the learning of those that have gone before me and into places I have no idea yet. I’m sitting here just soaking it up today. It’s been wonderful.

What can we do for young people?

Gavin O’Meara: So yeah, lifelong learning. And I think it’s something which, for those side hustlers, those that are looking to start up, you’ve got a team. You might not be on staff, but you’ve got people around you in the church, business, how they’ll be able to come on and be that start of that team.

I think that’s kind of an important thing, which maybe people haven’t really picked up. I’m going to go a bit into my mission a little bit. I drifted into it a bit. So, around the future of skills.

We’ve got a bit of a crisis with young people at the moment where there’s 978,000 young people that are not in education, employment or training. That’s called NEET. That’s 12.5% of all 16 to 24 year olds. That’s 15% of all 22 to 24 year olds.

There’s no top cover for someone now aged 23 to 24. There is no support. Youth Guarantee ends at 21. There is no funding for apprenticeships from January for someone over 21.

And there’s another report out in the week where half of those NEETs, those not in education, employment or training, they receive benefits. They’ve just slipped through the cracks.

So what can we as business owners do to address that? And what can we as the church do to address that? And Gordon, I know you’re doing loads of cool stuff with at risk young people and stuff like that. What would you say within there?

The power of community

Gordon Hickson: Yeah, I mean, it’s not really my field. But recently, I mean in the last few years, I’ve been involved with Betel. Betel is the organisation which is probably the most marginalised people in the country, which has been around for about 27 years now. And Betel is the Spanish for Bethel.

So we have houses, as a trustee, we have houses all over the country. I think 11 different cities. Pick up people who have, ex offenders, addicted, prostitutes, basically the people who are actually rejected by society.

What is fascinating is that when they come in and they finally give up their rights to, well, maybe I should put it this way. Many of them try every kind of rehab possible, but they just don’t work. Then they submit to the discipline of being part of the community in Betel.

And that simple thing of being part of a community, that community draws out skills. What I’ve been amazed, being with Betel, it’s watching these totally broken people. Yes, first few months, they’re coming off the drugs and finding their self identity, but most of them come to the Lord. They have the Jesus factor.

And then they begin to start finding out who they are because they develop a whole range of companies. They develop gardening work, restaurant work. They open up a lot of really good restaurants, furniture repair, tree felling, I mean, lots of different type of work.

And they’ll pick up skills alongside others. And bit by bit they pick up leadership and they pick up the way just to relate, and also just basic hard work. And it really brings something of a value. They feel like they can lift their head up again. They feel like, “I am something. I can produce something.”

Now obviously the money goes straight back to Betel, but all the work they do underneath their feet and hands and everything else from that. But I’ve just been amazed at the skills that I’ve watched coming out of these really damaged, broken, marginalised addicts.

You think, “Whoa, how does that come?” And it’s simply the fact that they’ve committed themselves to being a group of people who begin to draw out the best out of them.

And I think I said it last time I spoke, it is the power of community. It’s the incredible power of community to draw out what is in you and being willing to, day by day, develop the skills.

Changing somebody’s environment

Andrew De Groot: On that a little bit, I mean, I do think the power of community, I think that I describe it also in a different way, which is just the environment that people are in. You know, the environment you’re in changes everything.

You know, I’ve got plenty of clients who come from Torquay, Torbay area, and some of the children that have never left Torbay, to me never know, no intention to do. Their environment is so small that people have, is so small.

And I think one thing a church can provide is the opportunity to change the environment people are in. One of the most satisfying things I did, in all my sort of mission, getting to have lots of fun things, but one thing was just so simple, but so powerful, and I remember it so well.

There was this group of managing directors and we wanted to do something sort of good for the community. And we only had like a two hour session amongst this conference. And somebody organised for children from a local school, which is in a London really tough area, to come in.

And we did a CV review, something as simple as that. And, you know, I remember walking away thinking, wow, like, these people for the first time realised that with those skills, they could achieve something that no one in their family had ever done before.

But no one ever told them that they could do that. Like that just wasn’t even on their possibility chart. You raise an expectation or a possibility that wasn’t there, and just that inspiration.

“Yeah, with this, we could hire you if you could do this.” “What do you mean, I could come to work at this bank? You mean that’s possible? No one in my family could do that.”

It was so changing the environment, giving people the possibility. And then I think something Rediscover does very well, you know, Richard Miles does the City Fathers thing.

So for people to really have a tough time, walking alongside them, that’s got quite low take up. But for those people who would be able to get the time, that could help walk alongside somebody that really wasn’t in a workplace, providing that environment and inspiration and mentorship, I think could really lift their aspiration.

Taking a chance on somebody

Gavin O’Meara: Yeah. That’s cool. I was one of those sort of kids. I grew up in an area where the street a mile long, three people was, you know. And it was someone in our church that said, “Gavin, you could do a lot,” and stuff. And that sort of unlocked a lot of stuff for me.

And I think in our times as well, I remember one of my first employees to come, Jason. He’s in the States now. He hangs about with billionaires. He runs a satellite space magazine. He literally hangs about with billionaires on their yachts and flies about.

His first ever job was with us. And like, he’s now running several publications. We took a chance on this kid. And he’s like, literally epic.

So I think everyone, you know, we’ve got this chance to make impactful change on our teams as well. And it’s like, how we do that.

We’ve got like four minutes 50 left. So there’s something I want to ask everyone, that if you could dream the dream big, what would you want to give to everyone in this room? Steve.

Rise up and take your place

Steve Pailthorpe: I want to address the elephant in the room. That is that you, as a business owner, are not designed to make money to give it to the church and then the church spends it. Okay, that is not your purpose as a business owner.

Your purpose as a business owner is to create wealth and abundance that can steward the Kingdom of God into whatever area you’re called to be. And I’m speaking that to some of you prophetically today to call you into your place, because for too long some of you have been living under this cloud of thinking, “I’m just there to get by,” or, “Just there to do this.”

As a business owner, you can be an apostle in the marketplace. You can be a prophet in the marketplace. You can take your place and create generational impact and legacy for many, many people to come.

And so some of us business owners, you might have been around here, but for whatever reason there hasn’t been the appetite to get involved in Kingdom stuff. I’m hoping today, as a result of this conference, that you realise that you are doing Kingdom stuff and you are impacting your world.

And to give the next generation hope and legacy, you’ve got to take your place. And so if I could say one thing to you, as we come to a conclusion of the conference, it’s rise up and take your place.

Rise up to be the man or woman that God has called you to be. And whether that is that you’re running a small thing in a small town somewhere, as long as it’s having Kingdom impact and doing the thing that God has called you to be, then you’re doing the right thing.

But there are some of you here in the room whose sphere of influence is far greater than you ever realise. So stand up, take your place and God will be with you.

Dream, team and regime

Gavin O’Meara: Hey, cool. Andrew, we’re going to do a minute each.

Andrew De Groot: I would say, name? I would just say, have the right team with the right dream and get the right regime. That’s it.

Serve and let God draw out what is in you

Gavin O’Meara: Gordon?

Gordon Hickson: Forget the slogans and all that. Not everybody is a top entrepreneur. A lot of people are made to serve within a group. But basically, you just let your heart lead you into that place and just serve and serve and serve. Just give yourself to that and you’ll find whatever is in you will just get drawn out of it, and you’ll just be amazed at the future.

What has God put in your hand?

Gavin O’Meara: Go, Mike.

Rev. Mike De Vetter: In Genesis 48, the prayer was being prayed over Manasseh and Ephraim, and it was a statement, “Your brother will be great, but…” or, “You will be great, but your brother will be greater.”

I think we miss the first part, and we only hear the second part when we compare our lives to others. There’s greatness on our lives and we have to find what that greatness is and be true to that.

You know, Moses standing before God. “What’s in your hand?” Staff. Well, what is the staff? Look what God used with that staff. What He did with that staff. If we be faithful with that.

So what is the greatness? Dream about what the greatness on your life could be. The greatness is not for your glory. It’s for God’s glory. But what is the greatness that God has placed on your life?

And then don’t look at the fact someone is greater. Find that greatness. Be true to that and what you’ve got in your hand.

I think there was a moment where Moses had to throw that rod down, and then it turned into a snake. A scary moment. But then God said, “Pick it up.”

And when our business ideas, our dreams, our vision, all that we carry in our heart is laid down for God, and we pick it up for His purpose on His command, then there really is no limit to what God could do. So, yeah.

Lord, what do You want me to do?

Gavin O’Meara: Yeah, really cool. So I think one thing I’m sort of picking up is, your time, if you’ve got staff or not, is who you surround yourself with. And one thing I’d really love for everyone to try to get is like, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

So I’m going to pray that over us now. Lord, what is our mission for each one of the people in the room? And Lord, what do You want to speak into our hearts? And Lord, how can we step into it?

And Lord, make it really clear by the end of today that we know what You want us to do and what You want us to step into, and just unblock everything around us, I pray. Amen. Thank you everyone.

Continue the conversation at Rediscover Business & Leadership 2026

What made this panel work was the range of perspectives circling the same question. Calling matters, but so do skills. Vision matters, but habits shape whether anything actually changes. Independence can feel strong, yet business looks very different when there are people around you who can challenge you, encourage you and help carry some of the weight.

That is part of why Rediscover Business & Leadership exists. It creates space for Christians across business and working life to step away from the immediate pressure of the week, hear from people with real experience and meet others who are wrestling with similar questions about faith and work.

Rediscover Business & Leadership 2026 takes place on Friday 13 and Saturday 14 November at the Mercure Exeter Southgate Hotel, with a programme designed to bring practical business experience together with leadership teaching and genuine connection. Andrew De Groot is among those returning to speak in 2026.

Whether you are building a company, leading inside somebody else’s organisation or still working out what the next step looks like, you do not need to have everything figured out before you come.

Book your place for Rediscover Business & Leadership 2026 now.